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	<title>Comments on: Arts and Sciences</title>
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	<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/</link>
	<description>Let&#039;s give the Commission back to the church.</description>
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		<title>By: Paul Burleson</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-546</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Burleson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-546</guid>
		<description>Stepchild,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;ve been on the road the past several days but you&#039;ve been prayed for regularly during that time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have to say, this post is exceptional in my understanding of things. I think you&#039;re on to something with the art over science analogy and Knnuki hit on something profound with the questioning of intentionally planting churches. It may be intentionally building relationships is more the NT norm and those living people/relationships begin to function in a NT way as a living organism. Any organization would be secondary and even cultural it seems to me. That organization must not become a crib containing a growing enity that is bigger than the crib, but a Body that adapts the structure to let life out and free to be what life is. Just some thoughts but mainly grateful for your thoughts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Paul B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stepchild,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been on the road the past several days but you&#8217;ve been prayed for regularly during that time.</p>
<p>I have to say, this post is exceptional in my understanding of things. I think you&#8217;re on to something with the art over science analogy and Knnuki hit on something profound with the questioning of intentionally planting churches. It may be intentionally building relationships is more the NT norm and those living people/relationships begin to function in a NT way as a living organism. Any organization would be secondary and even cultural it seems to me. That organization must not become a crib containing a growing enity that is bigger than the crib, but a Body that adapts the structure to let life out and free to be what life is. Just some thoughts but mainly grateful for your thoughts.</p>
<p>Paul B.</p>
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		<title>By: Perry McCall</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-545</link>
		<dc:creator>Perry McCall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 14:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-545</guid>
		<description>I think your thoughts on the apprentice model of training are excellent. I just participated in an ordination service for a man who has been through less than two years of specific pastoral training. the training was done exclusively by his pastor. the classroom discipline is an incredible advantage to be certain. I would argue that a strong liberal arts program might be more important than a seminary degree if one can only choose one. However, I was amazed at how much more prepared for the pastorate this man is than many of the guys I was in seminary with. My friend was teaching him theology, expository methods, care giving, and baptist foundations and ecclesiology. But what he was teaching him most was the ART of pastoring. I totally agree that it would have to equally effective and useful out on the mission field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your thoughts on the apprentice model of training are excellent. I just participated in an ordination service for a man who has been through less than two years of specific pastoral training. the training was done exclusively by his pastor. the classroom discipline is an incredible advantage to be certain. I would argue that a strong liberal arts program might be more important than a seminary degree if one can only choose one. However, I was amazed at how much more prepared for the pastorate this man is than many of the guys I was in seminary with. My friend was teaching him theology, expository methods, care giving, and baptist foundations and ecclesiology. But what he was teaching him most was the ART of pastoring. I totally agree that it would have to equally effective and useful out on the mission field.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rogers</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-542</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-542</guid>
		<description>Great post!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;FYI, somewhere way down towards the end of the incredibly long article I just posted &lt;a href=&quot;http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/09/reply-to-brad-reynolds-keith-eitel.html&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; I quote the last few paragrahps of what you say here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post!</p>
<p>FYI, somewhere way down towards the end of the incredibly long article I just posted <a href="http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/09/reply-to-brad-reynolds-keith-eitel.html">here</a> I quote the last few paragrahps of what you say here.</p>
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		<title>By: Watchman</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-541</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 21:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-541</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for academics, for learning, critical study, theology, doctorates and whatever else may land in the &quot;science&quot; side of things.  Just so long as the experts really know what they are talking about because they are currently doing it, not because they&#039;ve studied it or did it years ago during the Jesus movement or other time in history different than the one I am living in.  When I realized I was telling 15 year-old stories, I knew it was time for a change if I was going to be of any use to the next generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for academics, for learning, critical study, theology, doctorates and whatever else may land in the &#8220;science&#8221; side of things.  Just so long as the experts really know what they are talking about because they are currently doing it, not because they&#8217;ve studied it or did it years ago during the Jesus movement or other time in history different than the one I am living in.  When I realized I was telling 15 year-old stories, I knew it was time for a change if I was going to be of any use to the next generation.</p>
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		<title>By: abrasseau</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-540</link>
		<dc:creator>abrasseau</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 17:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-540</guid>
		<description>&quot;Discipleship cannot be taught in a classroom.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A great principle. Of all the things I learned in college, church, or where ever, nothing has made as much of an impressions as life learning.  It has been hands on experience combined with the knowledge of others that has perked up my learning.  Someone can read the Bible everyday of their life through and through, but unless they give their life over to Jesus, it&#039;s all useless. Kind of like going to class, if we do not get our and do it what have we done.  All of this to say, I listened to someone one day counsel a local about church planting, what repulsed me was the fact that their was not experience there. How can I justifiably suggest or tell someone how they should or should not do something if I have never done it.  The problem with the advice was that it biased what was in a seminar, which in the same was not meant to be taken as &quot;This is how you plant a church&quot;.  Just because it was in a book, class, or seminar does make it law, right, or the only way.  However, in your answer for the IMB and mentorship, the MAC Region somewhat adopted a mentorship program for incoming career; however, others such as ISC, Masters, Journeyman, fall through the cracks as far as I know.  If you would like to see the brochure let me know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Discipleship cannot be taught in a classroom.&#8221;</p>
<p>A great principle. Of all the things I learned in college, church, or where ever, nothing has made as much of an impressions as life learning.  It has been hands on experience combined with the knowledge of others that has perked up my learning.  Someone can read the Bible everyday of their life through and through, but unless they give their life over to Jesus, it&#8217;s all useless. Kind of like going to class, if we do not get our and do it what have we done.  All of this to say, I listened to someone one day counsel a local about church planting, what repulsed me was the fact that their was not experience there. How can I justifiably suggest or tell someone how they should or should not do something if I have never done it.  The problem with the advice was that it biased what was in a seminar, which in the same was not meant to be taken as &#8220;This is how you plant a church&#8221;.  Just because it was in a book, class, or seminar does make it law, right, or the only way.  However, in your answer for the IMB and mentorship, the MAC Region somewhat adopted a mentorship program for incoming career; however, others such as ISC, Masters, Journeyman, fall through the cracks as far as I know.  If you would like to see the brochure let me know.</p>
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		<title>By: stepchild</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-539</link>
		<dc:creator>stepchild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-539</guid>
		<description>Knnuki,&lt;br /&gt;Thank you. I have ammended my orignal post in light of the wisdom in your comment. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I guess I&#039;ve always seen three &quot;steps&quot; in &quot;missions.&quot; Evangelism, Discipleship, and Church Planting. It seems like focusing on the first might be to short-sighted. The second is something that is likely a natural consequence of disciple-making, which, of course, is the Commission. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Watchman,&lt;br /&gt;Unfortunately, very little of the &quot;Science&quot; even recommends &quot;conversation over a pint.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knnuki,<br />Thank you. I have ammended my orignal post in light of the wisdom in your comment. </p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;ve always seen three &#8220;steps&#8221; in &#8220;missions.&#8221; Evangelism, Discipleship, and Church Planting. It seems like focusing on the first might be to short-sighted. The second is something that is likely a natural consequence of disciple-making, which, of course, is the Commission. </p>
<p>Watchman,<br />Unfortunately, very little of the &#8220;Science&#8221; even recommends &#8220;conversation over a pint.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Watchman</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-538</link>
		<dc:creator>Watchman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 14:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-538</guid>
		<description>I had lunch with a dude yesterday who also used to be on staff with a well known collegiate ministry.  He left that position to pursue leadership development in academics.  He told me of several books that he was reading, talked about models for social change, ideas about renewing culture, contextualization of the gospel, where are the key cultural centers that the gospel must penetrate, the importance of the eschaton and the echatalogical event.  Somewhere in the conversation was mentioned the parousia, Os Guiness, and Q.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It was a nice lunch, but in the end it left me wondering how all or any of that is really going to help me in my conversation over a pint with my co-worker buddy who just got fired. Or for that matter, how is it going to help the guy I mentor?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had lunch with a dude yesterday who also used to be on staff with a well known collegiate ministry.  He left that position to pursue leadership development in academics.  He told me of several books that he was reading, talked about models for social change, ideas about renewing culture, contextualization of the gospel, where are the key cultural centers that the gospel must penetrate, the importance of the eschaton and the echatalogical event.  Somewhere in the conversation was mentioned the parousia, Os Guiness, and Q.  </p>
<p>It was a nice lunch, but in the end it left me wondering how all or any of that is really going to help me in my conversation over a pint with my co-worker buddy who just got fired. Or for that matter, how is it going to help the guy I mentor?</p>
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		<title>By: knnuki</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-537</link>
		<dc:creator>knnuki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 13:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-537</guid>
		<description>It has only recently occurred to me that there is no scriptural command to plant churches.  I wonder if the real task of the kingdom is to get the gospel to people, and let it do its work there (I believe the real, living gospel is powerful!).  When it does its work, kingdom things (including church) will result.  By aiming &quot;intentional church planting&quot;, have we gotten things the wrong way around, in much the same way Art and Science are often applied the wrong way around?  Just a question...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has only recently occurred to me that there is no scriptural command to plant churches.  I wonder if the real task of the kingdom is to get the gospel to people, and let it do its work there (I believe the real, living gospel is powerful!).  When it does its work, kingdom things (including church) will result.  By aiming &#8220;intentional church planting&#8221;, have we gotten things the wrong way around, in much the same way Art and Science are often applied the wrong way around?  Just a question&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Riley</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-536</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Riley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-536</guid>
		<description>I generally like the metaphor, but I really like thinking of it as the difference between walking by faith and walking by sight.  The difference between trusting God at His word and trusting God&#039;s word as filtered through my personal experiences.  Interpreting the scripture to fit what I have seen occur versus letting God&#039;s Word speak.  God often did the impossible in a new way each time so that the Israelites, for example, wouldn&#039;t trust in a method.  Instead, they learned to simply trust God (or not).  We don&#039;t see the Israelites trying the march around and blow trumpet method on other cities, for example.  They had to believe and obey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I generally like the metaphor, but I really like thinking of it as the difference between walking by faith and walking by sight.  The difference between trusting God at His word and trusting God&#8217;s word as filtered through my personal experiences.  Interpreting the scripture to fit what I have seen occur versus letting God&#8217;s Word speak.  God often did the impossible in a new way each time so that the Israelites, for example, wouldn&#8217;t trust in a method.  Instead, they learned to simply trust God (or not).  We don&#8217;t see the Israelites trying the march around and blow trumpet method on other cities, for example.  They had to believe and obey.</p>
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		<title>By: stepchild</title>
		<link>http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/comment-page-1/#comment-535</link>
		<dc:creator>stepchild</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://missionsmisunderstood.com/2006/09/20/arts-and-sciences/#comment-535</guid>
		<description>In case my post was a little too focused on pointing out the obvious negatives and didn&#039;t suppply any encouragement/solutions, here are some of my thoughts: &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-Start a renewed organization-wide focus on missiology and ecclesiology.&lt;br /&gt;-Fly church planters (not organizational leaders) back to Richmond to conduct training at ILC&lt;br /&gt;-Require all mentors to undergo training in how to be a mentor. We currently have lots of &quot;mentors&quot; that don&#039;t even know that they&#039;re mentors!  &lt;br /&gt;-Make the missionary apprentice program a true apprenticeship by not assigning them to a job until they&#039;ve completed two years of working alongside (same city, same job, meeting daily) the experienced church planter who writes the job request. In other words, you don&#039;t get to bring in new people and leave them to fend for themselves anymore!&lt;br /&gt;-Make no committments to missionary apprentices beyond the two years. Allow the church planter to decide whether the apprentice will &quot;work out&quot; or not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We&#039;ve made some progree toward this, but our policy of &quot;Send as meany as possible&quot; really undermines the mentoring process. Also, the further we gat away from a personal relationship between leadership and supervisee, the worse off we are. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Guy,&lt;br /&gt;Thanks. I think you&#039;re right to be concerned about who is selected as a mentor. I keep going back to personal relationships as the key. The RL should know all of his &quot;direct reports&quot; personally, and that pattern should coontinue all the way down to the line. That way, we can hold people responsible (&quot;Hey, you trained Jimbo and allowed him to bring on some apprentices, but he obviously wasn&#039;t ready...&quot;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Mr. T, &lt;br /&gt;Okay, maybe a &lt;i&gt;little&lt;/i&gt; science. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anonymous, &lt;br /&gt;Sorry, I&#039;m no master. I do my fair share of training, but always as one learner to another. I am a stepchild, after all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Ewinwe,&lt;br /&gt;I&#039;m wondering about the wisdom in even having an agency-wide strategy. If we acknowlege the differences between peoples and cultures, why not focus on a company-wide &lt;i&gt;ethos&lt;/i&gt;, and let the regions/clusters come up with the strategies?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Oh, yeah, &lt;i&gt;control&lt;/i&gt;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case my post was a little too focused on pointing out the obvious negatives and didn&#8217;t suppply any encouragement/solutions, here are some of my thoughts: </p>
<p>-Start a renewed organization-wide focus on missiology and ecclesiology.<br />-Fly church planters (not organizational leaders) back to Richmond to conduct training at ILC<br />-Require all mentors to undergo training in how to be a mentor. We currently have lots of &#8220;mentors&#8221; that don&#8217;t even know that they&#8217;re mentors!  <br />-Make the missionary apprentice program a true apprenticeship by not assigning them to a job until they&#8217;ve completed two years of working alongside (same city, same job, meeting daily) the experienced church planter who writes the job request. In other words, you don&#8217;t get to bring in new people and leave them to fend for themselves anymore!<br />-Make no committments to missionary apprentices beyond the two years. Allow the church planter to decide whether the apprentice will &#8220;work out&#8221; or not.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve made some progree toward this, but our policy of &#8220;Send as meany as possible&#8221; really undermines the mentoring process. Also, the further we gat away from a personal relationship between leadership and supervisee, the worse off we are. </p>
<p>Guy,<br />Thanks. I think you&#8217;re right to be concerned about who is selected as a mentor. I keep going back to personal relationships as the key. The RL should know all of his &#8220;direct reports&#8221; personally, and that pattern should coontinue all the way down to the line. That way, we can hold people responsible (&#8220;Hey, you trained Jimbo and allowed him to bring on some apprentices, but he obviously wasn&#8217;t ready&#8230;&#8221;)</p>
<p>Mr. T, <br />Okay, maybe a <i>little</i> science. </p>
<p>Anonymous, <br />Sorry, I&#8217;m no master. I do my fair share of training, but always as one learner to another. I am a stepchild, after all.</p>
<p>Ewinwe,<br />I&#8217;m wondering about the wisdom in even having an agency-wide strategy. If we acknowlege the differences between peoples and cultures, why not focus on a company-wide <i>ethos</i>, and let the regions/clusters come up with the strategies?</p>
<p>Oh, yeah, <i>control</i>&#8230;</p>
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